For those of you unfamiliar with the reference Reggie is quoting the final line of the poem Gunga Din by Rudyard Kipling. It has fallen out of cultural shorthand over the last half century. Many people pronounce it as it is spelled. It would be correctly pronounced ad Gunga Dean. You can tell because of the rhyme scheme. The Line I used as the page title precedes the first usage of Gunga Din in the text. I’ve actually heard the poem recited using both pronunciations and one, obviously, sounds incorrect. My paternal grandmother was an English teacher and because of this my father’s family tended to reference literature regularly. Many of the references passed into my parlance via osmosis and only later on did I discover the sources. In retrospect I realize that my grandmother pronounced it correctly, but everyone else did not. It’s possible they did that because in English, outside of the context of poetry, Gunga Dean sounds odd to our ears. It’s also possible that since the incorrect pronunciation has proliferated through pop culture so thoroughly that they simply chose to conform, as to avoid the discussion I’m presenting to you now. In the grand scheme of things it’s not all that important, but there is a correct way and an incorrect way, regardless of how you feel about it. Language evolves and that can’t be stopped. At best all you can do is pick a hill to die on and defend it so that your version of your mother tongue doesn’t deviate too far from the version you learned during your lifetime.

Well, I accidently hit the publish button, but it’s almost time anyway and I’m not likely to say anything else important along these lines going forward. I suspect many of you are drained as this new week begins. Remain strong if you can. Lean on those who are stronger if you can’t. I will do my best to meet you here again on Wednesday. Until then, light the beacons. Help will come.

23 Comments

I am her Majesty’s dog at que. Pray tell me who’s dog are you.

Comcially, when I first read it I got it right because it reads the same as romanized Japanese.

But it’s also fun to know that a lot of people pronounce Gunga Din with all short vowels, turning it into guhnga dihn, which feels similarly weird, but also doesn’t have a note in wikipedia about it because it’s not corrected by the rhyming scheme?

And then it brings me to the author, who clearly knew it was “dean,” so probably knew it was “goonga” too (especially if he knew someone with the name/story of same), and how he would feel about people getting it wrong.

Language is neat.

It should also be noted than the majority of sites that purport to have the correct pronunciation pronounces both parts incorrectly.

Having heard a recording of the author himself reading his poem aloud, I can confidently say he pronounced it with all short vowels. He did not pronounce it “dean”. Regardless of what anyone else calls “correct”, and despite its not rhyming with the word “queen”, I’ll take it from the author’s own mouth how he intended it to be pronounced.

It’s quite possible that he began pronouncing it the way most people do to suit them. It’s easier than having an argument about it.

Well, he’s a little too dead to ask, which is a shame.

Get out an Ouija board.

Where did you hear it? I tried searching to see if it was posted anywhere on the internet, but I didn’t have luck. I could only find like 2 recordings of him.

Language is not neat, it is terrible and messy. English puts the fun in funeral, the fist in pacifist, the laughter in slaughter, and the romance in necromancer. On the other hand, that is putting an upbeat spin on awful things…

And here I just thought it was an obscure EU Star Wars character (wouldn’t be the first time an Indian name was used). I’ve read two of Kipling’s books but I have not heard of this poem, so that was interesting. I find it interesting too how Kipling seems to have faded far faster than alot of his contemporaries; reading old stuff, he was very highly regarded, but he’s largely forgotten. I know literature is, in general, not loved by most, but alot of classic names are still referenced regularly, even by people who have never read a word of, I dunno, Hemingway.

Well, at least some of Kipling’s works are well known still, about as much as Barrie and much more than Lewis. The Jungle Book has a dozen or so adaptations including the movies that are called just that. Just So stories are still adapted as books for kids. The Cub Scouts of America still reference Akela in their guidebooks and ranks. I don’t think rikki-tikki-tavi is super popular anymore outside of grade school but it can still be found there.

A number of his poems have been adapted into folk songs, and a couple of them still circulate amongst various groups, with Oak and Ash and Thorn recently gaining some popularity with The Longest Johns’ adaptation. The Smuggler’s Song is also floating around with a notable version by Pandora Celtica.

I think the guy who did the original adaptations into song form had the name Pete Bellamy? Something Bellamy anyway, and IIRC his album of Kipling songs was originally released sometime in the 1950s. Most didn’t proliferate that far beyond Bellamy, but Oak and Ash and Thorn and The Smuggler’s Song still circulate at the very least.

Yeah, not saying his work hasn’t been influential on culture, just that it’s odd how he personally is forgotten, while there are other authors who are remembered even when most people don’t know any of their work. Sort of backwards.

It is pronounced as writen, anybdeviance from that is mental ilness on linguistic level, doubly so if it’s a silent letter.

Pronouncing phoneticallybis the way to go… in case of languages like welsh they just should not use latin alphabet, really not working well that combo.

So it should be pronounced phonetically, even though you also recognize that that is wrong for many languages, and that it’s not even always correct in English, and everyone who doesn’t is “mentally ill on linguistic level” even though there is no “linguistic level” in our mind and so therefore can’t be “ill.” Like, the simplified spelling movement ended over a century ago, I think it’s time to move on.

Explain to me how is it possible for english to pronounce Colon, Colonny but then with Colonel you invent entirelly new word?

There are languages that do phonetic spelling, Korean and Finnish for example.

And besides english has two forms, the british and american, several words have two ways to write them. You have ANY idea hiw confusing that is to anyone trying to learn your pants (british definition) on head language.

So yeah calling it and other languages like it mentally handicapped is accurate to some of us. Because it makes no sence if one tries to use logic with them.

Funnily enough, I know the correct pronunciation of Gunga Din because of the late great Jim Croce adapting the poem into a haunting song.

The more I hear about Reggie’s mother, the more I dislike her. Also, speaking of Kipling,
A) that reminds me of the Marx Brothers(?) joke:
“Say, do you like Kipling?”
“I don’t know, I’ve never Kippled”

And B ) Thomas might find some common ground with his namesake in ‘Tommy’ https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_tommy.htm

There goes Reggie, impressing his hot librarian gf again.

I’d have gotten it wrong.

“Remain strong if you can. Lean on those who are stronger if you can’t.”
“If you can’t run, walk. If you can’t walk, crawl, and if you can’t crawl-find someone to carry you.” I know where I heard it, most of yours probably do too.

Alex: He’s man enough to know the correct pronunceation of G-
Reggie: You misspelled ‘pronunciation.’
Alex: *looks confusedly toward 4th wall camera*

(notes: The word “misspelled” has never looked more wrong to me. Even more so than how wrong putting punctuation inside the quotes looks to me. Also, if the typo isn’t there in the future, this whole comment will become even more confusing.)

P.P.S. I vote we change the pronunciation of Queen so that it matches whatever the correct version of “Din” is.

But we’ll leave the pronunciation of its other rhyme in that poem, “green,” so that everyone still has a topic to discuss.

The Gods of the Copybook Headings, anyone?

2885 A-servin’ of ’Er Majesty the Queen.

23 Comments

Leave a Reply to Tuomari Cancel reply