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I think the one thing many people don’t understand, especially believers, is that there was no “bible” until long after all the books were written. The Hebrews had the Torah, and even that had several versions. Everything else was dozens of books, written at different times by different people, being spread around and shared and waxing and waning in significance, all basically as a reflection of various social norms at different times (much the same way writings over the past 2 centuries of the US would simultaneously reflect this nation, while also being all over the dang place in tone and content). Even the New Testament is a collection of stories, letters, and predictions, written by various authors at different times from all over the Roman Empire, still reflecting their culture and situation at the time.

I bring all of this up because I think both sides have really lost sight of the main thing Christianity is about as they obsess over the details; the idea of grace, love, and forgiveness. You can argue about contradictions in the text, and there are a zillion, and you can selectively grab on to certain phrases in order to shame and attack people, while conveniently ignoring contrary passages. But the overall point that defined Christianity as so different from it’s peers and predecessors is that focus on love and community. The “ideal” member of most religions is a zealot for rules and rituals; the “ideal” Christian is a father who loves his children and is willing to sacrifice, and die, for them, even the wayward ones. It’s a clunky and certainly imperfect message, but there is much good to it; it’s not just another list of gods and list of demands. I’m not really a Christian and I don’t feel we necessarily need to believe in this particular story, but I think it was a powerful idea at the time and positively impacted the world–it would have done more but far too many people get caught up on the (cherry-picked) details.

You really can’t blame people for obsessing over the details when you consider what the other side of the coin is, though.

Get this right and you get to spend the rest of time in a place that is so fantastically good that you can’t even describe it using human language.

Botch the job and you get that same time period in a maelstrom of suffering and fire.

For what its worth- I once asked a Catholic Priest, aka a Catholic-Christian Priest, about- [in his view, + to him, his view is what the Catholic denomination believes], about Hell.
I asked him- in the Christian religion, who goes to Hell?

His response was, [this is [about] what he said, I might not remember it word-for-word]:
“The people who go to Hell are: 1) the person or people who say to [in his view- the God, Jesus Christ], “You are God. I know that you are God, and 2) I totally turn my back on you. I know that you are God, and I choose to totally abandon you, permanently.”

In his view, those are the people who go to the Christian religion’s Hell, or the opposite of Heaven, or Hades, or whatever name that people choose to call it.

Other people might say that, “The fire + brimstone sermons’ views on Hades, is the correct view”. [I’m not a fan.] Not all Christian people, or others, share those sermons’ view, of Hades.

But as I understand it- in this Catholic Priest’s view of Hades, his explanation of how Hades works- is the Christian people’s view of Hades, [or some people will tell you- that is the Catholic Christians’ view, of Hades].

(I apologize for the long comment. In my view, this is a complicated topic, to try and explain.)

Having said that- in making my comment- I’m not trying to make anyone agree, or disagree, with what this Catholic Priest has said. This is his explanation, of this topic.)

The problem with Christianity started cropping up around the time it got political. You can thank Constantine (the emperor, not the mage) for that. Because once it became political, it became a political tool. To be abused, ripped apart, cherry-picked, and used as hyperbole and an eventual backslide to demagoguery and malice.

The guy, according to his story, had a simple message. The ten commandments and all that, it came from the Torah. Which makes sense, given the guy was a Jewish Rabbi. But his message was sweet and simple: Love Thy Neighbor. It means you don’t have to hate anymore. You don’t have to hate someone because of where they grew up, or what gods they pray to, or what part of the world they came from. It’s a simple message of tolerance.

Assuming we take the stories at face value, let’s look at who actually were the recipients of miracles. Orphans, widows, the crippled and lame, conquered peoples, those who were under Roman law ‘second class’ at best. In a world where slavery was seen as ‘just part of society’, he reached out to and helped the minorities of his day and age.

How that has been twisted into a rhetoric of hatred, bigotry, and intolerance is mental gymnastics I wish I did not understand. But, as with any political topic, can be merely grist for the mill. All you have to do is not respect the original content, and a world of ‘reinterpretations’ will open up before you.

From what I’ve learned, or figured out, from being raised in a reasonably tolerant version of Lutheranism and being a Jehovah’s Witness for several years (no longer, they’ve gone all culty now), And my family’s surprisingly accept everyone, show love and kindness view, Christ expects us to follow his laws. We are to do the best we can as imperfect humans and he understands we make mistakes and is almost endlessly forgiving, except as mentioned above about turning from God and having no sincere sense of we have done wrong in our hearts.

You also have to take in consideration the views of the times when things were translated, men had the opinion they were the boss in some aspects even though women were meant to be their equal and partner in the doing things together sense, and frankly , because they were human the scribes who translated made mistakes.

Ok, seriously. That last panel really got me. I actually teared up a little. Well done, Jackie

I’m just going to assume you were crying about something in a far green country under a swift sun rise and forgive you ;-)

I know Alex’s whole thing is that she’s well-read, intellectual… but man does she sometimes come off as pretty damn patronising. Even if it’s said kindly- I assume, since I can’t hear her- and she means well, that first panel is about as condescending as any sequence of English words I’ve ever seen or heard! It’s exactly the same type of tone as ‘someone being really self-consciously “reasonable” and refusing to resort to ad hominem in an online argument whilst also knowing they’re making the other party look like an idiot child’.

I mean, sometimes in order to get someone to see the benefit of another perspective, you need to point out the flaw in their current perspective. I don’t think it’s an insult to point out a pattern you’ve noticed in someone’s thinking, even when it’s in the context of suggesting it might be flawed. I consider that a kindness, I’ve certainly benefitted from it a few times, and I’ve also helped a fair few people using that method as well.

As with many things, intentions really matter here. She isn’t speaking from a place of malice but rather is genuinely trying to help him to reflect on himself so he might grow to meet the potential she knows he has. He’s not stupid, but sometimes he can get in his own way either through his ego or his sense of righteousness, which leads to a potentially overly simplistic worldview at times. He genuinely would benefit from re-examining his previous conclusions, from looking at things from more angles than he normally does, and from accepting more complexity into his worldview.

I’ve found some people can struggle to identify the difference between a hand trying to help them up from one pushing them down, because all they know is they are looking up at a hand and they aren’t comfortable with the idea that someone might be above them. But if they take the hand up, the one offering it won’t be above them anymore and then they can meet on equal footing. It isn’t condescension to offer a hand up, and there’s rarely a benefit in false humility to pretend that isn’t what it is.

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