Commentary On Commentary.
There’s a “debate” going on right now between various comic creators about female artists getting creepy shit said to them. I recognize it’s mostly pointless, and your average reader doesn’t care, and probably shouldn’t. That said I have a perspective on this issue that no one has brought up and I feel like working it out in a public forum. I’ve talked about it before, so for those of you who actually delve into my underworld this will be OFN.
I have learned that when you read text you bring your own tone into it, which may not reflect the tone of the writer. Most commonly I read innocuous statements as personal attacks, because my world view tends to be very adversarial, bordering on paranoid. I color someone else’s words with the paint of my outlook. So now I run comments I’m not sure about past other people to help me decide if I’m understanding the intent correctly.
Sometimes I get comments about the female characters that I read as creepy. Carol in particular, but I’ve gotten them for all the girls. My first instinct is to delete anything that reads as creepy to me, but I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m not sure exactly what creepy is. Years on the Internet have blurred the lines for me, and probably made me hyper aware of certain things that other people wouldn’t think twice about.
This is as close as it’s ever going to get for me when it comes to experiencing sexism as it applies to a girl. Although since I attribute the comic randomly between all the mutations of my name I occasionally get people asking, or assuming, that I am one. (Jackie is my first name in case you weren’t aware.) Anyway, if someone says they really love Carol’s full, plump, figure, or Nina’s sweet ass, or what have you, I’m not exactly sure how I should feel. I mean, those are reasonable things to think. The girls are flawed (depending on how you define flawed anyway.) but none of them are unattractive. I am pleased to know that I have created characters that people can buy into to a point that they wish they could find a real person just like them to love. It’s flattering on some level because there is a lot of me written into the main cast, even the girls. They are as much aspects of my personality as Thomas, or Ed, are. Jolene in particular is a mix of the childlike glee combined, with the abject terror, that I experience the world with, and she is by far the most openly adored female.
It is a very complex issue. I certainly don’t want people to feel like they shouldn’t compliment the physical attributes of any of the characters. I’ve spent most of my life feeling totally uncomfortable expressing my masculinity. Never quite sure of where the line between creepy and acceptable is. In fact, as time goes by, I don’t even think there is one rule for it. You have to judge every situation individually and hope for the best. That is not really how I like things to be.
I have only recently begun expressing myself openly in terms of what I find attractive in the opposite sex. As I said before, I’ve always been made to feel like expressing that part of me is wrong. Not by my parents, but by society; the weirdly twisted puritanical American media that on the one hand wants you to abstain from sex, but also go forth and populate the whole world with little Christians. It is very difficult to come to terms with when you’re base personality consists almost completely of crippling shyness.
At the end of it all I’m still not sure what to think about any of this. I would much rather have someone awkwardly trying to compliment the girls than saying nothing at all. I don’t want to kill the participation, or camaraderie, that sort of thing can foster in readers. And I have come to know the regulars as decent people who mean no harm.
There’s a whole other level of discussion when it comes to Carol. She is much fuller figured than is typical in any media. It has taken her longer than any other character to settle in to herself physically. I’ve received many emails from women thanking me for making a big girl the romantic lead. Girls who felt better about their bodies after seeing a girl like them get the guy, and get him in a very confident way. In retrospect I’m kind of sad that I didn’t push it a little further. The fact of the matter is that I was too much of a pussy to test that boundary any further than I did. By my reckoning she is barely even plump.
I think when a guy sees Carol portrayed as a confident, well adjusted (in so far as anyone is), curvaceous, woman they assume, quite rightly, that I find that type of woman attractive. Then they want to connect to me, and potentially other readers, on that level as a man. (Or woman if she’s oriented that way.) A level I still have trouble expressing openly. And why shouldn’t they? It’s natural to want to connect to other humans. Especially if your opinion is not held by the majority.
At the end of it all I still don’t really have any answers. I just have a few tangentially related thoughts strung together looking for some kind of direction. That said, I leave it to you to offer any you might have for me. Be careful to save your comment before you post though. The site is still acting funny and may try to spill it into the void if you aren’t wary. If you have anything lengthy to ad you might want to write it in another program and past it in after. You know, just in case.
18 Comments
Hey hey. This isn’t so much an intelligent comment with direction as it is general props. I’m a female reader who’s kept up with your comic a while now, and the extra dimensions you give your characters (no pun intended) are part of what makes this such an awesome read. Society sucks for making you feel you have to doubt your inclinations… And for making you feel you need to amputate them from your work. As if such a thing were even possible.
Anyways, here’s to yummy yummy curves. Carry on. =)
I too am rather ackward when it comes to the females I find highly attractive. I grew up with three sisters and I also lived in a house that had four girls, two of which was around my age. I find it hard to be assertive in asking them out on dates or anything. Though the weird thing is that I was married for a year. I was able to connect with her but it didn’t last. So any who I understand your plight.
I know how people feel, as I grew up loving Carol Type. Mostly body, from having a few extra pounds, to have some more. I also wanted to say, i was happy to see Carol have such a lead in this comic as you given her, confidence and sexuality, in a sorta boss role that she has. I know some people have there “NORM” idea, but mostly, people are who they are. No one should have a say one way or another. With regards to comments on your character, if you feel someone comments may not be view how you view them, then say something. Mostly from the differnt comments i read through my reading of all your comics, it seem people post about the character as there scene in the comic showed them, so i am unsure if there been bad comments there, or you have a differnt side that people are posting from. I am not sure if this sounds confusing or not, since these are thoughts i had for awhile my self, but I hope you contiune the work how you want, and not how other want :D.
This is a tough one, and my thoughts are still stewing on it all (to the point of I don’t even know yet if i have any comment to make, constructive or not).
One question if may, meanwhile. You opened with “There’s a “debate” going on right now…” Is this debate anywhere publicly readable? While your commentary on the commentary is a side commentary of your own thoughts, i’d be interested in seeing this main conversation too…if it’s not private that is.
Well it’s really hard to follow, but if you want to do some Twitter detectiving it all starts with a tweet from http://twitter.com/beatonna from October 26th. You should be able to track the whole thing from there. I’m not related to anything going on there. I just had this line of thought as a reaction to it all.
Well keep in mind there is the form of what is sexy that a lot of marketing want you to think as it. That makes it easier for them to sell something since it has elements of what they think as sexy. It is the only explanation to why the blond bimbo is so popular. So I agree with you on the society part full hearty.
Though I do think the idea of what is or isn’t sexist matter.Since most of the people that will scream that something is sexist because it doesn’t agree. For example some girls want to be treated as an equal, so a guy would tell a joke as she is an equal that she doesn’t like. Then will cry that guy is being sexist for joke being crude. Simply because it wasn’t being treated equal in her view.
What is or isn’t sexist tends to go on the point of view of the observer rather then the facts. In that example that is poorly drawn for my lack of thinking of a better example. It is what the girl felt as to what being equal was rather then being treated like everyone else.
So what you think is or isn’t at the end of the day matters, not what anyone else says. Since the definition is based on your opinion of the matter.
As long as there is a connection between people, looks don’t matter. Wither as friends or something more. Something you’ve done a good job of showing in the comic so far.
I wanted to also say I think it’s awesome that you made Carol the way she is. She seems very confident as a whole, but still was nervous with Thomas. I actually whooped when she made the first move with him! It’s so great to see that. It’s hard to be confident, especially with a guy when you’re a “big girl”, believe me I know. Even though she’s just a character, I have to admit, she’s inspired me to be a little more confident as well. So thanks for that! Keep up the awesomeness.
There’s a couple of different threads of your commentary that caught my attention.
As far as liking girls of a certain shape goes, we all have our preferences of body shape, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I have always encouraged female friends that if they lose weight, it should be for their health, never to get a guy. If a woman’s weight is affecting her health, then she needs to lose weight for her own good. But you don’t draw Carol as morbidly obese, just as short and curvy, and there’s nothing wrong with that. She wears clothes that suit her figure and are neat and flattering. She’s not trying to cram her body into a pair of size 2 pants, nor is she wearing a shapeless sack…she’s got clothes that fit (current disguise excepted of course ;> ) and are professional and appropriate to her job description. I think you do a great job with her.
The puritanical Christian angle… well, I’m an unmarried Christian virgin myself. Excluding some close friends where there are a separate set of rules, I generally wouldn’t make a comment about a woman that I’d be uncomfortable with a stranger making about my mother or sister. “You look nice to day” or “That color/outfit really suits you” are generally acceptable. On the other hand, “nice t*ts” or “nice a**” are crude comments, more sexually focused, and I don’t consider those appropriate remarks to address to strangers. I wouldn’t personally use the terms anyway, because I do consider them impolite, but I have friends who are okay with such commentary within their close social circle, but not from strangers.
However, I think a lot more of the reluctance to make compliments these days has to do not with puritanicalness but with fear of militant feminism. I know personally of someone who made the comment “You look nice today.” to a woman who arrived at work dressed up instead of more casual, his comment confirmed to be no more than that statement by those who were there at the time, and he got a sexual harassment complaint in his file from her. We have an unpredictable environment that ranged from rampant feminists who take any acknowledgment that they’re female as a put down or sexist remark, all the way to the sexually predatory cougar types at the other end of the scale, who feel a proper first greeting is to walk up to a total stranger, grab his crotch and whisper something dirty in his ear. Even worse, sometimes they can be the same person. When she’s feeling bold and initiates, it’s being an empowered woman, whereas if the man speaks first it’s sexism and harassment. There’s no one set of rules for how to interact anymore, and it gets very intimidating to risk crossing a shifting boundary unexpectedly.
I think Jonathan brings up a very interesting point when he said
“On the other hand, “nice t*ts” or “nice a**” are crude comments, more sexually focused, and I don’t consider those appropriate remarks to address to strangers.”
I think its interesting because it brings up how we the viewers relate to you and your characters. Yes they are fictional but we have known Carol and Thomas and the others for their entire lives. So when a reader has that kind of… whats the word I’m looking for, commitment? to your characters do we still view them as drawings on a web page or actual people. Jeph Jacques has twitter pages for his characters, Brendon small goes on tour as his Deathklok characters and talks to the audience in their voices. Just the other day i was trying to remember who had said this funny joke only to realize it was actually Dave Kellet via Sheldon. Is it strange to think that when someone says Nina has a nice ass that they are talking about a person that they have come to know pretty well. Or is it creepy that someone is having sexual feeling towards a two dimensional fictional character?
As usual I tend to disagree with some readers here abour definition of sexism and feminism. Most people find feminit are a plague because they can’t get what the struggle is. since it’s a struggle – at least an economic one when you think of alle the unpaid work at home by cleaning and all- its vocabulary tend to be reciprocating the (mental) violence people encouters, we write about “struggle”, “opponent”, and all. Still it isn’t a hate thing against other “non-feminist” people, or against males. Then overreaction often issues, from both parts, both as defensive syndroms. Expressing preferences for body types as a norm is sexist. Expressing preferences for a person as self isn’t. The difference between both really is, as you said, thin and hard to point out.
Girls themselves have often a scheme for bodytypes they prefer. You could have pointed the Ed example for his lack of inches as well – but as a matter of fact, very few persons can understand that to prefer tall guys is sexist the same way than to prefer model-looking girls: if you can understand that it’s somehow bad to prefer girls who look like dolls because it they’d be easier to dominate, it’s the same backwards, prefer tall guys means you support the system which settles the males as dominant. Why mostly comments about how guys treat girls? Two reasons: first is obvious, girls get the most infamous part on this system, are much more violented – second is a bit historical, people who founded radical feminism were people who were the most mistreated and the most enlighted, so not housewives but lesbians who had to fight their way, no wonder then that this whole part of submission acceptance is less pointed out.
But all of this is only bodytype: as soon as you get a personnality behind it, it becomes harder to define to what point it’s sexist or not. As we all are born and raised part of a system that do is sexist (pay, work, type of work, work hours, responsabilities), we all have sometimes sexist tendancies in our comments, even if we are relatively decenter that other commentators.
As a conclusion, I’d like to apology for simplifying things a lot in order not to bore people, I have so much more to say on this theme and in my own language (english is neither my mothertongue nor the first I learned), and I’d like too to thank you for the good work on the characterization in your comic.
The fact that Carol is pleasantly plump is part of the reason I love her. I’ve never taken anything in the way of an extensive art classes before, just used a few books on basic drawing so if what I’m about to say is wrong, I apologize upfront. I have seen a certain… expectation in art work for the ‘ideal body’. I can’t easily pull up an example from a comic or cartoon in the last 20 years where there was a character who didn’t have an idea body that wasn’t meant to be a walking punch line or a critical story element. More often the rotound individual was intended as a story element more then a character, you know the ‘You’ll be better if you’re the ideal body’ kinda story. There have been one or two large males character, but even then their size was a story element more then reality. E Honda from Street Fighter, he was a Sumo wrestler. The entire point of his character was how he fought.
My bottom line: You’re doing a good job with the comic and I really like the characters you’ve done. Keep doing what you’re doing and you’ve got at very least one fan.
I think the internet is home for people who aren’t adept at dealing with others. Both those who over-think their interactions as well as those who don’t think enough. I think our author’s comments touch on both groups.
The best advice I can offer is this: If you are awkward with women, and want one for your very own, do what you need to in order to get over it. Now. It doesn’t get easier as you get older. In fact behaviors get set in place and it definitely DOES get harder. If you want someone by your side, go out and find them. If you’re fine as a solo act, you don’t need this advice.
I think there’s very few of us who don’t sexualize the people in our worlds. I think it’s human nature. I think when it comes to voicing that stuff, a little bit goes a long way. the puritanical Christians might have been onto something by restricting sex talk. It does make it easier to get along with each other.
I’m not sure how helpful this will be in terms of helping you reach a solid conclusion about creepiness, or which comments are appropriate and which aren’t, but I do believe that you’re right in saying that each case should be judged individually. Everyone has a different threshold for what is acceptable and what isn’t, and I think that’s something that you have to discover for yourself. Perhaps you’re discovering that your threshold is somewhat subjective because you’re a person that doesn’t like to make sweeping judgments or come to rash conclusions about something, even in spite of the adversarial perspective that you tend to have. At least, that’s kind of what I hear you saying. It’s defined differently for everyone.
I also want to comment (hopefully appropriately) that I find it very endearing that you have such respect for your characters, so much so that you feel a bit harassed, in a sense, when someone makes a comment that doesn’t sit right. I’ve read too many comics and viewed too much art where its clear that the creator has no dignity or respect for their characters… and this has little to do with whether or not the content is sexual in nature, or what have you, and more to do with whether or not the creator tried in any way to establish their character as believable or person-like within the context of their story. Or maybe I’m just over-thinking the whole thing. In any case, the connection that you have with your characters seems to have gone a long way for making their stories enjoyable.
OH WOW! I have to digest this! If I only had more time right now… referring back to the first text page or 1 Wakey, Wakey, Eggs & Bakey in the archives—5am always comes too early! But I simply must comment on this more tomorrow!
In my experience, what makes a comment creepy or not is tied both into the intent of the speaker and in the interpretation of the listener and cannot, sadly, be disentangled from either. The intent side of the problem appears most prominently when someone makes a comment that, while potentially flattering, comes off as demanding, objectifying, or inconsiderate to the subject. For example, Kate Beaton’s initial complaints about it being creepy when someone suggests they would like to procreate with her come off as potentially creepy because there’s an implied assumption that Kate will be thrilled at the idea of mating with the person speaking it. Alternately, comments specifically about a person’s body and its positive features without tying it into the full person attached to said body are often, intentionally or otherwise, objectifying and uncomfortable. On the other side, certain people certainly are more sensitive to such things, especially in certain contexts. With the Kate example, she’s had a lot of the most definitively creepy people on the internet express their undying love for her and play up how very, very creepy they are about it in uncomfortable ways, and so anything even remotely resembling that is going to be tied into that association and will be unwanted. Accusations of creepiness from any person, thereby, must be seen merely as enforcing boundaries of interaction and not taken personally, but rather as a request to end what can easily become harassment.
Stepping away from that for a moment, I’d like to thank you for making Nina as intriguing of a character as she is. It’s stupendously rare to see a sexually aggressive woman in any sort of media whatsoever that isn’t instantly derided and shamed for daring to assert herself, and the other characters around her have very smoothly called her on her behavior when its become actually unsettling. Plus, as rare as it is to see a woman with Carol’s figure written well adjusted and self-aware, it’s equally as difficult to find tall blond women who still fall outside the bounds of the traditional “bombshell” body type with the same qualities in popular fiction.
Nina is a perfect specimen of the type of girls I love. My current “love interest”, _is_ Nina, with only minor differences. The fact that you’ve been able to create a fictional character that so closely resembles real life, is the reason why I love your comic. On the other hand, your work, because it is so accurate and because it so lovingly describes the characters, does bring out strong feelings in the readers, both good and bad. I have refrained from commenting before because I had the idea that my feelings for Nina, however weird it is to have feelings for a fictional character, were too great to share with the internet. As my relation with the real life Nina develops, however, my interest in the fictional Nina is diminishing. I think that’s how it should go, and maybe that’s what happens or will happen with more people.
Well, that’s my idea on the matter. The realer the fictional character is, the stronger the role it can take in the lives of the readers. That can work both good and bad. Since your work is filled with love, and your characters are treated with a lot of respect, I believe that your fiction will have a good effect on most, if not all people. I think you should be proud of that. Please keep on doing what you’ve been doing. It’s very good.
Stumbled onto this comic within the last month and spent an entire saturday just reading and catching up.
With that, this is one of the best comics I have ever read. Carol is beyond awesome in so many ways. In my opinion (And she boosts it) society puts too many standards in the way of just enjoying what you have. I’ve never been labeled a normal dude myself. Eccentric is usually what I hear, but in my opinion, I think every girl out there shouldn’t worry what a man thinks and go for it. Just be a fine sexy sweet big girl and if a man can’t appreciate you, his loss.
I honestly think the smallest woman i’ve dated was 170. For some reason I can connect more to a bigger girl because they just seem more relaxed. So that being said –
ROCK ON GIRLS!!
Preach it brother!! WE LOVE BIG GIRLS!!!